Body Scissors vs Body Triangle

[revanyo]

Which one is more painful, and is does one require less strength and skill to be effective.

[desertgoodguy]

My vote is th ebody scissors, can be very painful if applied correctly

[Ronald_Frump]

I'd say a body scissor can inflict more instant damage, as the force is concentrated laterally. I know in competition judo, it's a banned technique and submission grapplers have been known to puke, whilst being squeezed in the "guard" position. It's been said to cause kidney damage, plus its more likely to bust a rib.

A body triangle would spread the force around a greater surface-area. So I would imagine your breathing would be compromised more, as it would target your diaphragm. Also, it could be held quite tightly for a sustained period. More effective for wearing you down, IMHO.

[desertgoodguy]

Depending on how the body scissors is applied, across th elung area or the stomach area, each one has its own plusses

[DR]

I agree with Stewie about body scissor inflict more damage. With girl's legs stretched out, and ankles crossed, her thighs can produce a lot of pressure - a really nice rib crushing hold.

I love body triangle too. Combined with a sleeper, or a full nelson, it is a deadly hold. Her triangle is holding you in place, with no way out, while her other hold finishes you off.

[DiabloNYC]

Stewie is very right that the body triangle compresses the diaphragm and would cause the most immediate breathing difficulty - provided that the opponent is large enough.  A long-legged attack would have a tough time compressing a skinny defender.  But if attacker leg length and defender body size combine just right, the body triangle can be quite a compressive force on the front abdomen, and possibly the lower back.

The body triangle is also good for "low effort" control.  Meaning that is the attacker gets the body triangle locked on, she/he can expend relatively low effort to maintain the lock.

The body scissors, on the other hand, does have the potential to cause more immediate "damage."  In order to stay on, the body scissors needs to actually be squeezing - mind you, I do not consider the guard to be a body scissors.  The body scissors tightens like a vice.  And think about it: when someone does a scissors, she/he has the *potential* of squeezing her/his legs together to make them tough.  With a triangle, you won't actually ever fully close the space inside the legs.

So, the body scissors can be effective even if the attack has long legs and the defender has a skinny body.

Though the scissors are more immediately damaging, they are also a much higher effort move.  To maintain the body scissors, the attacker actually has to be squeezing and trying to extend the legs.  A "loose" scissoring position (like the guard) is not actually scissoring.  So, one can only hold an active scissor for so long...


I think it helps to think of the body triangle more as a holding position (best as a form of back control) and the body scissors more as an attack.

[Ronald_Frump]

Good summary, DiabloNYC.

I think re the judo rules, it was to prevent participants applying a bodyscissor, as a submission move whilst in the guard position. Kortney Olson said something similar on her blog: whether it was a classic body-scissors or more of a body-triangle, we'll never know.......



But as you can now see from reading here, using strength instead of technique will get ya in trouble, or if you're like me, DISQUALIFIED!  lol- This was only my second tournament, and I wasn't too clear on the rules that you can't tap someone out by using brut force and doing things such as 'neck cranks', or getting a girl to tap by squeezing the shit out of her while she is in your guard. I got DQ'd twice... One poor girl got her neck pulled and I heard it pop 5 times.  I was trying to break her posture down so I could set up for a triangle (or so I thought I was).  But after going back and reviewing the video, I certainly looked like I was trying to rip her head off.... (but in a loving, fun way of course). The second girl, as I mentioned, I got her to tap by having her in my guard.  She was smart in that she said she didn't want to have her ribs broken.  Of course after both of these little incidents happened, I felt awful.  Both parties know that getting injured can be the name of the game sometimes.

ref. http://konfidencebykortney.com/work/women-need-bjj/

[DiabloNYC]

Judging by the patch on the top player's gi and the styles of gis being worn by the competitors (the jacket wouldn't cover far enough over the butt to be judo legal), I'd say this looks like a brazilian jiujitsu (BJJ) tournament and not a judo tournament.

It is quite right that neck cranks are illegal in BJJ tournaments for all levels.  However, in adult competition, the body compressions, like body scissors, are technically only illegal for white belts, according to the 2012 edition of the IBJJF rules.  In BJJ, body and neck scissors are perfectly legal for blue belts and above.

Just a little interesting tid bit regarding scissoring and brazilian jiujitsu competition!

[DiabloNYC]

As for judo, though, I will admit I am no technical expert on those rules.  However, I do know that in judo the body scissors (do-jime) compression is illegal on all levels.

[Ronald_Frump]

Yes. my bad! I was referring to two separate articles - one about banned judo techniques and then I mentioned that Kortney article without adding that she indeed trains BJJ, rather than judo.

However, in adult competition, the body compressions, like body scissors, are technically only illegal for white belts, according to the 2012 edition of the IBJJF rules.  In BJJ, body and neck scissors are perfectly legal for blue belts and above.

God help the BJJ community, when Kortney gets a blue-belt! 

[DR]

Love Kortney's comments, lol:

"...getting a girl to tap by squeezing the shit out of her...", or

"She was smart in that she said she didn't want to have her ribs broken."

KO is such a powerful babe.

[Ronald_Frump]

She is without doubt my favorite of the "FBB-type" wrestlers.

[magicstar]

I have just discovered this interesting topic, because I absolutely LOVE both holds. I have been lucky to be crushed so many times between extremely powerful female legs, both session wrestlers and "normal" women, but let me tell you that I was in shock when, several years ago, I wrestled Kathy from London (the bjj expert) and she got me in a body triangle. I have NEVER felt anything like that in my whole life, and I am extremely athletic with abs of steel.Her legs had wrapped around me litterally like an anaconda, and the squeeze was excruciating....but I was loving it(LOL). I thought she could not squeeze any tighter, but I was wrong, I was living FOR REAL the Xenia Onatopp fantasy: I resisted....I thought "this is not possible, she cannot beat my abs with a body triangle" and she squeezed me even more strongly, as if there was no end to the squeeze. At one moment my rational part of the brain told the other (crazy) part that I would have ended up in hospital with serious damage, and I gave up. She looked at me and, smiling and sweetly, said "well, you said you wanted to wrestle with a python girl"!
I know, now, what it is like to be squeezed by an anaconda: she stopped because she dediced to stop, but she could have litterally killed me with that hold!
I think she has retired now...she is a wonderful girl beside being an EXCEPTIONAL wrestler.
Have you had personal experiences with body triangles?